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Moments with Melissa
A question on kink? 
2nd-Mar-2008 02:58 pm
On one of my lists an author stated kink in sex is anything other than the missionary position.

I have to disagree. Only last year Lori Foster told our local INRWA chapter that ten years ago oral sex was a shock to some readers. Now, anal sex is the new vanilla.

I'm interested in your opinions. What does a story/romance need for you to sit back and say..."now that was kinky!"

Thanks in advance!

Until later~
2nd-Mar-2008 08:13 pm (UTC)
*snorts* Not sure I even know HOW to answer that one. Nearly everything I write tends to verge in that direction to the point that what's normal to me might be insanely kinky to another person. Though I am curious to see what others say...
3rd-Mar-2008 01:37 pm (UTC) - Thanks, Myc!
I find this all fascinating. :)
2nd-Mar-2008 08:18 pm (UTC)
I think I love you *giggles*

3rd-Mar-2008 01:45 pm (UTC) - *Blush*
2nd-Mar-2008 09:12 pm (UTC) - A Question on kink?
The kinkiest fictional story I ever read involved a male character who had surgery to remove his genitals and then had his body encased in a plastic body mold with discreet feeding tube and a permanent catheter and colostomy set up to handle his body wastes just so he could become a mannequin as the ultimate expression of his sexuality.


The transformation of a person into a mannequin as a sexually desired ending was what had me stumped.

On the other hand, the concept of falling in love with your sexdoll has been shown in various SF flicks. The movie, Cherry 2000 had the man married to his sexdoll and she short-circuited when they were having sex on a water soaked floor. http://apolloguide.com/mov_fullrev.asp?CID=2971

Then, there was Mr. Universe in the Serenity movie who married his sex doll.

3rd-Mar-2008 01:21 pm (UTC) - Re: A Question on kink?
Lord love a duck, I'm ... speechless.
2nd-Mar-2008 09:59 pm (UTC) - Kinky Question
We just watched a 2003 documentary on comic book heroes. Talk about kinky! And I'm not referring to newer graphic novels or comics post 60s I'm talking Wonder Woman and Batman!
As far as kinky - geezh I don't know. I think Barbara's example is the kinkiest I've ever heard!
3rd-Mar-2008 01:52 pm (UTC) - Thanks, Jeanne.
I goota agree...Barbara's response is by far the kinkiest. I'm glad she responded because I'd not have known such things existed. ~Mel
(Deleted comment)
3rd-Mar-2008 01:58 pm (UTC) - Thanks for chiming in, Alex.
Yeah, m/m (even a ménage romance) can be very vanilla. The genre has all the same heat levels as a straight romance, inspirational, sweet, sensual, spicy, and erotic.

I consider my writing pretty basic too. Though I do have one character named Miller who may push my boundaries. ;) ~Mel
3rd-Mar-2008 01:51 am (UTC)
When it comes to romance, I think the field has certainly opened up. Certainly to some people, kink is anything not the missionary position. But I think for the vast majority of modern readers of romance, they're a lot more open. Anal sex would probably strike many romance readers as pretty kinky. But it depends on the format of the book. Oddly enough, you can get away with more in trade paperbacks than you can in mass market. That's because trade readers tend to be younger and "hipper," I'm told. I wrote MERCENARIES for Ellora's Cave originally, and it included an anal scene. When Cindy Hwang at Berkley said she wanted to publish it in paperback, I thought she was nuts. I was really afraid I'd get crucified, since I'd caught hell for more vanilla scenes in my mass markets. Yet nobody said a word, and MERCENARIES sold very well.

So it depends on the target market.

Angela Knight
3rd-Mar-2008 04:50 am (UTC)
Yeah and I've been backed up by all the replies here and a few other authors who agree with me. As long as oral sex between consenting adults in a heterosexual context is still illegal (as in Texas) and other parts of the country, it's still kinky regardless of how you label it.

and I know, I should have prefaced the poll/discussion slightly different. Damn me. But there was a time when holding hands used to be considered kinky and kissing in public was too.

And I will define kinky in my PR about the workshop in question.

Thank you Ms. Knight :)
3rd-Mar-2008 02:04 am (UTC)
It depends on whose scale you're using. Kink is anything other than the missionary position if the person evaluating that kink thinks so.

Romance genre today on average doesn't seem that "strict". We get everything from sweet to downright dirty. (Lucky us. LOL)

"Naughty is using the feather, kinky is using the whole chicken."

3rd-Mar-2008 02:09 pm (UTC) - Yeah...lucky us!
It is good we have such a variety to pick from.

Thanks, Paula!
3rd-Mar-2008 04:26 am (UTC) - It's all relative -- or maybe not?
Hi, Mel! I consider the base of the word "kinky," which is "kink." It seems to me that the word "kink" indicates that it applies to the individual. (At least, it does in my mind.) What may be a kink for me, may well be normal for someone else. So, really, I suppose what is kinky is up to the individual, or in the eyes of the beholder. Isn't it impossible for an entire population to have sex in a way that would be considered kinky? If everyone's doing it, it can't be kinky, can it? Yet that doesn't really answer your question, because as a romance writer, your books reach a wide audience in terms of sexual practice, I would think, anyway. Do we then differentiate between the normal and the abnormal. I can (and have) read about missionary position, anal sex, bdsm, etc., in many novels written in our present time. What might be considered kinky is when one character has a need for something above, beyond or different from the norm. For example, if a character requires that his partner dress as and pretend to be his mother while having sex, now that's pretty kinky, and not something one would think of as "normal" for a romance hero or for the population in general. That's a bad example, but, hey, I'm drained tonight in my brain, and I can't think of any better examples. Please forgive the bad example. I think it does get the point across. Could it also be considered kinky that the only way a man can experience a climax is to be tied up spread-eagled on a bed? If that's the only way this poor fellow can reach ultimate bliss, does he not have a kink, or a fetish, which is perhaps embedded deeply in his individual psychological make-up? True, others may also engage in this type of behavior while having sex. Still, the vast majority probably have fun doing this kind of thing together when they are in the mood for something a bit more adventurous or playful--something to add a little spice to the bedroom, when they want to pretend they are kinky. I didn't intend to dodge your question by running around it in circles. Perhaps there is no way to answer this question in a straightforward manner in today's society. But let me make one thing very clear (this is me being funny, or trying, anyway): I am by no means an expert on "kink," since I don't believe I have any kinks in my own psyche, at least as far as sex is concerned. Now, I love to read a novel where the hero and heroine are having fun engaging in kinky play so long as no one is hurt. But that's not actually them being kinky, is it? I'm reading a novel right now where the villain vampire only enjoys feeding when he can get his victim into a state of great terror and fear. His acts include violent rapes. This vampire has gone out of his way to do some really awful things over the past seven centuries just to get his kicks while drinking someone's blood. Does this mean that this villain has a kink? In comparison to his counterpart, it probably is a kink, though a really bad one. The hero vampire, on the other hand, refuses to terrorize his victims, preferring to lull them into a state of lust and desire before partaking of their blood. He then erases his victim's memories and closes the wounds, so no one is the worse off. "Meals" sometimes volunteer their blood because of his sexual talents. He will even forgo intercourse when a volunteer asks. But I don't think we would consider the hero's sexual habits to be kinky, at least in the world of vampires. If anything, in a romance novel, this hero vampire's acts are more the norm for male heroes, putting the female first, inflicting no harm, making sure she is satisfied even if he is not, etc. So, could a character engage in a kinky act, and yet still not be kinky? I think it's very possible. I'm going to stop, now. I think I asked more questions than answered with my own opinion. Peggy Dallmann
3rd-Mar-2008 09:46 am (UTC)
I thought I was going to say something ... until I read Barb's comment. Whatever I thought of in my feeble mind flew straight out the window after reading about mannequin-as-desirable. Wow. Thanks for the continuing education. :)

Kaz Augustin
3rd-Mar-2008 02:13 pm (UTC) - Lol...Kaz
That's exactly how I felt.

3rd-Mar-2008 12:15 pm (UTC)
I think Peggy pretty much covered it all...:)

Trista Ann Michaels
3rd-Mar-2008 02:13 pm (UTC) - Ditto
Peggy did cover it all. :)
3rd-Mar-2008 12:54 pm (UTC) - Kink is in the eye of the beholder
Paula summed it up best (love the chicken versus feather LOL). What I find kinky, someone else may yawn at. Yet others may consider it over the top kinky. Markets change as evidenced by the Lori Foster comment and as Angela K pointed out, even the type of book determines what's kink and what's not.

I had to come over and see what Barbara had posted about. Wow. Just wow. I think that's just about the top of the kink scale for me.
3rd-Mar-2008 02:15 pm (UTC) - Re: Kink is in the eye of the beholder
Lol...I must not be as vanalla as I'd thought. I really do find all this fascanating!

Thanks, Mechele!
3rd-Mar-2008 04:38 pm (UTC)
I saw that comment, and the craziness the question of kink has evoked, both on that loop and here. Personally, I think the pendulum is swinging back the other way (pun unintended, lol). I think there is, and will be, a market for the less erotic/kinky type of stories. I write traditional open-bedroom-door romance. It's not sweet by any means, but it isn't erotica either.

I think there's a market for the entire spectrum of sexuality in romance. And that's as it should be. Choice is good!

4th-Mar-2008 04:18 am (UTC) - Hiya, Cheryel.
Oh yeah, plenty of room for everyone's favorite heat level. Inspiration. Sweet. Sensual. Spicy. Erotic. These heat levels are going to be around a long, long time. :) And so many genres to enjoy too!

3rd-Mar-2008 05:59 pm (UTC) - my definition of kink
I agree with all that has been said here, and am forever scarred by Barbara's example, but I wanted to offer my own definition. Kink is always in the eye of the beholder, but what makes it kink to an individual is a specific reaction to the scene, which is: "OMG, what are the doing? I can't believe they're doing that!" and then, the important part: "I wonder what that would feel like?"

Good kink invites curiosity, and invokes a pleasant, forbidden thrill. When a scenario falls outside of these boundaries, then it slips into the realm of the disturbing - and at that point, I don't call it kink anymore, myself, because to me kink is a happy word. I blog about visual erotica, so spend far too much time thinking about these things!


Evie Byrne

4th-Mar-2008 03:37 am (UTC) - Thanks, Evie!
This is the response I'd been looking for..."Good kink invites curiosity, and invokes a pleasant, forbidden thrill."

I wish I'd figured it out on my own. :)

3rd-Mar-2008 07:21 pm (UTC) - Kink
Well, I agree... Kinky is to some extent up to the individual. I think that it is anything outside regular sex. Anything including bondage, toys, even costumes is kinky. Some of those are totally normal and vanilla for me, but it's still kink. Wanting to turn yourself into a mannequin goes way beyond kink, that's borderline psycotic, and that person(character) needs help. Of course, that is my personal feeling because it is way outside my comfort zone for body image... and because of those cult people that all emasculated themselves before commiting suicide.

To sum up. :) Kink can be mild or extreme...but it's all personal.
4th-Mar-2008 03:34 am (UTC) - *Nodding* in complete agreement.
Kink can be mild or extreme...but it's all personal.

I've learned a lot in this discussion and enjoyed it.

5th-Mar-2008 04:47 pm (UTC)
If anyone thinks anything but the missionary position is kink than they need a new sex life. LOL. I'm not sure I can answer though. I don't consider oral or anal sex to be kink. I don't think toys necessarily are. BDSM? Hmm... but do practitioners of BDSM want to consider themselves kinky? And anything too weird isn't kinky, but disturbing. I think if we want to be open-minded maybe it's time to do away with the concept entirely except to use it with a grin and a wink. :o)
Sharon Bidwell
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